00:00:04 Introducing third-party logistics and Jingyang Xu.
00:00:35 Xu’s career path and Microsoft tenure.
00:01:39 Xu’s shift to e-commerce via LightInTheBox.
00:03:21 Xu’s work at Winit and his co-founding decision.
00:04:18 Tech’s role in Winit’s logistics approach.
00:05:08 Trends impacting cross-border trade and supply chains.
00:08:00 Increasing viability of small online merchants.
00:09:46 Ecommerce decentralization and rising need for 3PLs.
00:11:13 Winit assists in shipping, customs for merchants.
00:12:53 How WeNeed integrates APIs for ecommerce.
00:14:01 Winit’s carrier network and merchant convenience.
00:15:10 Challenges and solutions for fast delivery at Winit.
00:17:21 Automation, integration for reliable, fast services.
00:18:00 Role of data, integration in supply chain issues.
00:19:38 Handling diverse products with predictive analysis, automation.
00:20:46 Intelligence in supply chains, 3PL’s traditional role.
00:23:01 3PL-managed supply chain aspects, potential of data.
00:25:02 Supply chain issues, role of historical data.
00:25:29 Future of supply chain: AI and machine learning.
00:26:28 Winit’s transition to a software company.
00:28:34 New supply chain actors like ‘Winit’.
00:30:07 Traditional vs. tech-driven supply chain companies.
00:32:19 Advice for European e-commerce sourcing from Asia.


In the interview, Kieran Chandler, Joannes Vermorel, and Jingyang Xu explore the evolving dynamics of supply chain operations. Xu underlines the vital role of partnerships and anticipatory understanding in the supply chain sector, while Vermorel discusses the emergence of technology-driven companies, emphasizing the need for high automation levels and software reliance for superior execution. Vermorel also contrasts the approach of these new-wave companies, who engineer client-tailored solutions, with traditional supply chain management practices. Xu concludes by advising European e-commerce businesses to be adaptive to the fast-changing cross-border supply chain and to be open to innovative trading methods like direct inventory placements in European warehouses by Chinese factories.

Extended Summary

The interview hosted by Kieran Chandler involved two guests: Joannes Vermorel, founder of Lokad, and Jingyang Xu, Chief Strategy Officer at Winit. The discussion centered around the growing industry of third-party logistics (3PL), which is projected to reach a trillion dollars by 2025. 3PLs handle warehousing and distribution for various companies, including giants like Amazon and eBay, allowing these companies to focus on their core businesses.

Jingyang Xu was introduced first. He recounted his career trajectory, starting with his graduation in computer science from a university in the United States. He then spent a decade at Microsoft, primarily in development roles, contributing to projects like Internet Explorer, Exchange, text-to-speech systems, and Windows. After his tenure at Microsoft, he decided to explore beyond pure software development and joined a Chinese e-commerce company called “Light in the Box.”

“Light in the Box” emerged as one of the first companies to sell products directly from Chinese manufacturers to Western consumers via its website. With Xu as Vice President of Engineering, the company experienced significant growth, reaching 20 million dollars in sales within its first three years and escalating to between 120 to 200 million dollars in the subsequent two to three years. Xu played a crucial role in developing their technology systems, website, and marketing strategies.

Following his stint at “Light in the Box,” Xu briefly worked at Weibull, China’s largest social network, where he oversaw the ad network. He described this experience as vastly different from his previous roles. In 2012, he co-founded Winit, the company where he continues to work today.

Addressing the general perception of 3PLs as a low-tech industry, Xu emphasized Winit’s distinct approach. He explained that the decision to establish Winit was influenced by three significant trends he observed while working in China’s largest social network and in cross-border e-commerce.

Firstly, he noted a shift in the control of the cross-border supply chain. Traditionally, those who owned the inventory facing customers controlled the supply chain. Over time, however, this dynamic began to change.

The advent of online platforms like Amazon and eBay, as well as the emergence of numerous new e-commerce platforms, has led to manufacturers getting closer to consumers. This shift has resulted in the control of the supply chain moving increasingly towards the manufacturers. While traditional storefronts still maintain a significant role in supply chain management, a noticeable trend is the increasing control of supply chains by product manufacturers.

The conversation highlights a paradigm shift that took place around 2012, with manufacturers increasingly gaining direct customer-facing relationships. This shift is not absolute, however, as traditional retail stores continue to maintain their supply chain management systems. The discussion notes the significant role played by small and medium-sized merchants in e-commerce and how it’s becoming increasingly viable for them to maintain sustainable businesses online. The conversation also touches on the emergence of individual merchants who are creating successful businesses online, sometimes even outperforming Amazon’s direct sales.

Joannes Vermorel, founder of Lokad, weighs in on these industry changes, highlighting the benefits of decentralization. With this new structure, product specialists who know how to market, present, and provide accurate descriptions of products online can flourish. However, these small-scale sellers may not have the resources to manage large-scale infrastructure or maintain storage facilities, and this is where companies like Lokad and Winit come in. They essentially provide an abstraction layer to take care of warehousing needs and shipping requirements globally, allowing these merchants to focus on their core competencies, such as sourcing the right products and providing excellent customer service.

Jingyang Xu, the Chief Strategy Officer at Winit, agrees with this sentiment, emphasizing that their company’s role is to allow e-commerce merchants to concentrate on their key selling points. By providing standardized, stable, and transparent services at cost-effective prices, they relieve sellers from dealing with complexities like custom procedures or logistics. Xu refers to Winit as an “app,” noting that it integrates with marketplace APIs, allowing for complete automation of the selling process. However, the uniqueness of Winit lies in the fact that it is not just software - it deals with real goods and real shipments.

Joannes pointed out the importance of detail-oriented integration and transparency in diagnosing delays. He also stressed the importance of maintaining simplicity in the system despite the complexity of the integration. The discussion then shifted to the challenges of managing diverse types of products and the use of predictive analysis and warehouse automation technology to address them.

The concept of a traditional third-party logistics provider (3PL) was also explored, with Joannes suggesting that the future 3PL would leverage data and information from multiple customers to optimize operations. Jingyang agreed, highlighting how data could predict potential problems and optimize decisions.

Jingyang Xu emphasizes the importance of partnerships in supply chain management, whether with customs officials, DHL, or the air freight forwarding industry. He underscores the need for proactive knowledge and understanding of these partners’ operations to anticipate and mitigate potential issues.

Joannes Vermorel further discusses the rise of tech-driven actors in the supply chain sector, exemplified by companies like Winit. Vermorel notes that while leadership is vital, the “Amazon lesson” highlights the significance of technology, especially in managing the minute details of supply chains. He emphasizes the need for high levels of automation and software reliance, using the tech-powered approach to maintain superior execution.

Vermorel also discusses the distinct mindset of this new wave of supply chain companies. Unlike traditional companies, these tech-driven firms often have a significant contingent of software developers and engineers, creating a brain-heavy environment that is akin to high-tech companies. He comments that these companies engineer solutions tailored to client needs, marking a departure from traditional supply chain management approaches.

Lastly, Xu offers advice to European e-commerce businesses looking to source from Asia. He emphasizes the rapidly changing nature of the cross-border supply chain and advises companies to keep an eye out for new opportunities and competition, suggesting a shift in traditional trading methods. For instance, he cites an innovative model where Chinese factories place their inventory directly in European warehouses, which could significantly change the inventory and cash flow management for European merchants.

Full Transcript

Kieran Chandler: Today, I’m delighted to say that we’re joined by Jingyang Xu from Winit to talk to us a bit more about 3PLs. So, perhaps as a start, you could introduce yourself and tell us a bit more about yourself.

Jingyang Xu: Absolutely, I’ve had a somewhat unconventional career that led me to my current position. I graduated in computer science from a university in the United States, then I worked at Microsoft for 10 years, mostly in the United States and some in China. I was primarily a developer, writing code for Internet Explorer, working on Exchange, text-to-speech systems, Windows, and many other products.

However, I decided to venture beyond software development. After leaving Microsoft, I joined a company called Light in the Box, an e-commerce company based out of China with its own website. It was one of the first companies to do this in the last decade, managing to go public on the NYSE five or six years ago.

The company connected manufacturers in China, who were producing all the products Western countries were buying, and sold them directly to Western consumers on its website. It experienced phenomenal growth, reaching 20 million dollars in sales in its first three years and growing to a hundred twenty million to two hundred million in the next two to three years.

As the vice president of engineering at that company, I helped them build their technology systems, their outward-facing websites, search engine optimization, marketing, and so forth. I was part of a very fast-growing cross-border retailer and was right in the thick of it.

After that, I briefly worked at China’s largest social network for about six months, where I owned the ad network for Weibo, China’s version of Facebook and Twitter combined. But in 2012, I helped co-found Winit, the company I’m currently at.

Kieran Chandler: It sounds like you’ve had a really high-tech background, especially at places like Microsoft. 3PLs are typically an industry that people don’t think of as being quite so high-tech, more of a low-tech kind of background. But that’s not the approach that Winit takes, is it? Could you tell us a bit more about that approach?

Jingyang Xu: Before we talk about Winit, I want to share why I decided, along with our co-founders, to found this company, and why I think it was a very good decision.

When we founded the company, I had just come out of both China’s largest social networking company and the first company that was really successful in cross-border e-commerce coming out of China. I observed three trends that I think are super important and are impacting cross-border trade in a significant way.

The first one was related to the traditional cross-border supply chain. 20 years ago, whoever had the inventory, who was facing the customers, controlled the supply chain.

Kieran Chandler: In the traditional sense, the control of the supply chain lies with the large retail stores. They have sophisticated supply chain management departments that handle ordering, pricing, inventory management, and logistics between different locations. However, with the rise of e-commerce, we now have online platforms like Amazon, eBay, and new ones emerging frequently. These platforms bring manufacturers closer to consumers. How does this shift in control of the supply chain impact the industry?

Joannes Vermorel: Well, you see, with the growth of e-commerce, the control of the supply chain is changing. Previously, it was mainly in the hands of the retail stores. But now, as manufacturers get closer to consumers through online channels, they are gaining more influence over the supply chain. However, it’s important to note that this transition is still ongoing and not yet fully established.

Right, you’ve still got all your local store fronts that they have their own management control the supply chain, but we’re seeing more and more of the actual manufacturers of the products they’ve got a direct customer-facing relationship. So they’re controlling more and more of the supply chain from when that finished consumer product is produced to all the way to delivering to the hands of a consumer. That’s the first sort of paradigm shift that we saw back in 2012 when we founded Winit.

The second one, which is actually correlated with the first trend, is that the merchant, that is the small and medium-sized merchant, it’s becoming more and more viable for them to do business online and to have a long-term sustainable business where they can make money and grow every month, every year. I think I saw some data that showed Amazon’s marketplace, versus the stuff Amazon sells by themselves, the marketplace sales actually exceed the sales of the stuff Amazon sells directly. So everybody on that marketplace is basically a seller. Some of them may be just somebody studying at home in front of a computer who’s talking to the manufacturers and then directly having that account on Amazon or on eBay. That’s making the sales. So there are literally tens and thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of these individual merchants online having a business. You can actually take a bunch of online courses on YouTube to see if you want to start one. So not very legitimate, but a good portion are.

Kieran Chandler: So, let’s talk about your company’s approach. Joannes, you mentioned that your software allows sellers to focus on what they’re best at. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Joannes Vermorel: Yes, definitely. When I say “focus,” I mean that we provide an app, in a way, that leverages the APIs of marketplaces like eBay. At the same time, we expose our own API so that it can be integrated with other applications. Sellers can use our software alongside their own apps, creating a complete online automation. It’s designed for IT mashups where different systems, like the marketplace, fulfillment app, and accounting app, can connect and work together seamlessly. And the interesting part is that it’s not just software; it involves actual shipments and real goods.

Kieran Chandler: I see. So, it’s more than just an app. Joannes, you mentioned that it’s about connecting different systems and enabling complete automation. Could you elaborate on that?

Joannes Vermorel: Absolutely. Well, our platform is like an app that grants you direct online access to 70 to 80 of the world’s best carriers. With us, you don’t need to sign contracts or establish relationships with carriers individually. You can simply point and click to utilize all our carrier contracts. But that’s just a part of it. Our platform covers every aspect of the selling, shipping, and inventory management process. You can do everything online. We have customers who never have to physically touch a cardboard box containing their products. They instruct us to pick up their inventory from China, handle the shipping, and store it in our warehouse. When they receive an order, our warehouse takes care of fulfillment automatically. They don’t have to physically manage the inventory at all. It’s all virtual.

Kieran Chandler: That’s fascinating. It sounds like your platform provides comprehensive solutions. Joannes, could you discuss some of the challenges you face in this industry?

Joannes Vermorel: Certainly. There are many challenges in the industry, but one of the significant ones is ensuring smooth international shipping. Managing logistics across borders can be complex due to varying regulations, customs requirements, and transportation networks. Another challenge is maintaining strong partnerships with carriers to offer reliable and cost-effective shipping options to our customers. Additionally, keeping up with technology advancements and market demands is crucial to stay competitive in this rapidly evolving industry. These are just a few of the challenges we continually address to provide the best solutions to our clients.

Kieran Chandler: The time e-commerce is… are kind of being expected more and more. Customers are expecting more. So, in terms of… in terms of next-day delivery and things like that, how are you solving fulfilling these high demands from customers?

Jingyang Xu: Well, we work very, very deeply and in an integrated way with our partners and vendors. For example, we work with Royal Mail in the UK. We have connections at the sales level, the operations level, and the finance level with Royal Mail. One initiative we did last year is working together with Royal Mail to inject directly into their central hub in the Midlands. This ensures that the package doesn’t go through another part of their network, which causes delays, etc. We were able to accelerate and ensure our products are delivered on time, nearly a hundred percent of the time.

Kieran Chandler: So, what sort of technological challenges are you facing in ensuring that happens?

Jingyang Xu: This is the other part of our strategy. We think of ourselves as a technology-based logistics and supply chain company. We don’t think of ourselves as just a shipping or fulfillment company. Technology is our core. We have over a hundred people working on writing code, testing that code, making sure it works, and designing different supply chain and logistics services to support our entire suite of products and services. We consider it our core. We look at each service or segment in the supply chain and think about how to automate, integrate, and focus on the individual details to make it better, more reliable, faster, and more transparent for our customers.

Kieran Chandler: So, Joannes, what do you see as the biggest area for improvement in the industry? Some people are getting mad about autonomous vehicles, but what do you see as the biggest area for improvement for fleets?

Joannes Vermorel: Without being an absolute expert in fleets, what I see is… is pain…

Kieran Chandler: Attention to details is crucial in supply chain integrations. You need to have all the information flowing without losing any granular level of detail. If something goes wrong or there’s a delay, transparency is key. You need to know exactly why it happened and be able to trace back everything. This level of integration requires more than just functionality. It requires providing an incredibly granular level of information and being able to handle the diversity of carriers, countries, and systems. It’s like a total force in terms of engineering.

Joannes Vermorel: Absolutely. Integrating such a diverse range of systems while keeping complexity in check is a challenge. We don’t want our own system to become a monster of spaghetti code where everything is interconnected and difficult to improve. We need to maintain the quality and productivity of our team. It’s a delicate balance.

Kieran Chandler: That makes sense. Now let’s talk about the diversity you have to deal with. Your company handles a wide range of products, both big and small. How do you manage such diversity and automate the processes?

Jingyang Xu: It’s definitely not a simple task, but our goal is to make it simple for our customers. From their perspective, they hand over their inventory to us, and we ensure it’s delivered on time and accurately. However, internally, we have extensive planning and predictive analysis. We leverage different types of warehouse automation and technology to manage the different product types effectively. This allows us to handle the diversity without burdening our customers with the complexity of the processes.

Kieran Chandler: Our own and then controlling our costs or within, we can pass that along to our customers, okay.

Joannes Vermorel: And Giannis, how do you see, sort of like an added bit of intelligence being added here? What sort of technology can we use to add intelligence to these supply chains?

Jingyang Xu: Yeah, I mean, the very traditional 3PL had no intelligence whatsoever. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but basically, they are just taking orders. The clients say, “I want this to be stocked here, I started here, I want to move it somewhere else, I move it somewhere else.” But then I would say there is zero intelligence. You’re just taking orders and executing. So that’s your very traditional, I would say, 3PL. And I think probably the future is, this is a situation where the 3PL is actually leveraging knowledge that you don’t have to execute better because the 3PL is operating tons of customers behind you. So actually, the know-how, I would say, the patterns of what is flowing where, what is the carrier that is most efficient for this type of goods or for this type of patterns, etc. So you have tons of information where, being a simple merchant, you do not have access to. Since information, not in a way that is statistically relevant, just because you’re not selling enough in every country, every situation, every type of Forex is wrong. And so a 3PL can basically leverage, I would say, all the information that it collects through its platform to add intelligence in, for example, where to stock the products, when, how, I would say, how to organize internally in the warehouses the storage of the products so that things can be accessed with very high productivity. You see, you have different types of storage for between fast-moving goods where you need shelves that are easily accessible, typically where you have everything that is in a bin, one product, one bin, and everything is like randomized in the warehouse, versus the storage where you have one bin and it’s one type of product, and you can have many units in the same. So different types of storage layouts can optimize the access for different turnover.

Kieran Chandler: I want to add a little bit to that because, you know, like the word 3PL, yeah, third-party logistics, right? So it’s implied that there’s a third-party managing some other parties, that’s why it’s called 3PL, right? So let’s now look at what are those parties. The parties that we manage… we manage pickup. So let’s say you’re manufacturing in China, right? So we’ve got that. You’ve got to take that product to the port, so that’s a pickup, right? That’s a party we manage. Then we manage export. So you’ve got to tell China customs what’s in here, it’s guaranteed, it’s legit, and we manage that. Then we manage ocean freight or air freight. Everybody should know what that is. We manage import. Import is a lot harder than export. Usually, when you’re exporting from our country to that country, they like it, so it’s not a big deal. But when you’re importing to a country, maybe you’ve got to pay tariffs, maybe they don’t want that stuff in there, you get more entertaining things, get a lot more entertaining. And then we manage the warehousing and…

Joannes Vermorel: Sorry to interrupt, but I think it’s important to clarify the concept of 3PL. It stands for third-party logistics, which means there is a third-party involved in managing various aspects of the supply chain. In our case, we handle pickups, exports, imports, ocean freight or air freight, and warehousing.

Kieran Chandler: Exactly, thank you for clarifying that, Joannes. Now, let’s turn to Jingyang. As the Chief Strategy Officer at Winit, how does your company fit into this picture?

Jingyang Xu: At Winit, we provide comprehensive solutions for cross-border e-commerce businesses. We specialize in order fulfillment, international shipping, customs clearance, and last-mile delivery. Essentially, we take care of the entire process of getting products from sellers to buyers across different countries.

Kieran Chandler: That’s fascinating. So, Joannes, how do companies like Lokad and Winit collaborate to optimize supply chains?

Joannes Vermorel: Good question, Kieran. Lokad and Winit collaborate by leveraging our respective expertise. Lokad focuses on supply chain optimization through advanced forecasting and inventory management algorithms. By integrating our technology with Winit’s capabilities in logistics and fulfillment, we can help companies streamline their operations, reduce costs, and improve customer satisfaction.

Kieran Chandler: It sounds like a powerful partnership. Joannes, could you provide an example of how this collaboration has benefited a company?

Joannes Vermorel: Certainly, Kieran. We worked with a global e-commerce company that was struggling with stockouts and overstocks, resulting in lost sales and unhappy customers. By combining Lokad’s demand forecasting with Winit’s efficient logistics network, we were able to optimize their inventory levels and reduce lead times. As a result, the company saw a significant increase in on-time deliveries, improved stock availability, and ultimately, higher customer satisfaction.

Kieran Chandler: Impressive results indeed. Jingyang, from your perspective, what value does this partnership bring to Winit and its clients?

Jingyang Xu: The collaboration with Lokad brings added value to Winit and our clients in multiple ways. Firstly, Lokad’s advanced forecasting algorithms help us optimize our inventory management, ensuring that we have the right products available at the right time. This reduces costs associated with excess inventory and stockouts. Secondly, Lokad’s data-driven insights enable us to make

Kieran Chandler: Lastly, but maybe super important, currently we manage all the carriers. So, those are all the parties we manage, right? So, I think if you talk about… if you… I think traditionally all those parties have been managed through one-on-one types of relationships. But, there’s a huge opportunity to leverage, I think, data, right? To leverage data, to use the data to be more predictable, so that you can stop a problem before the problem actually happens, right? So, you can say, “Oh, you know, that particular party is gonna have a problem with this particular situation. Maybe we should change it or we should go with somebody else.” Or you can say, “Oh, you know, for this type of package, I don’t want to use this carrier because of the historical data.” And then the most optimized one is over here, and that’s something we definitely agree with, Joannes.

Joannes Vermorel: Yeah, absolutely. And I think here, the future definitively has access to a lot more information than one individual merchant just because you concentrate all your observations. So, that’s something that could just not be accessible to individual merchants. And there, with the proper technology, obviously, that’s a lot of things to do, this data can be actually, I would say, utilized, yeah, optimize those decisions, yeah, absolutely.

Jingyang Xu: So, I think but you know, you’re looking at traditional machine learning techniques, and we have deep learning now with, you know, in artificial intelligence, and some higher learning techniques that are sort of making allowing us to make sense of that data much more coherently, comprehensively, and intelligently, right? So, I think that’s a huge opportunity there.

Kieran Chandler: Okay, and we talked about data. You spoke a bit about opportunities. You talked about the future for Winit. Can you see in your day when Winit is one day a software company? Because what you’re dealing with now in terms of everything you’re programming, all of that side of work, could you see a day when it’s just software?

Jingyang Xu: Well, I don’t think that’s our eventual goal, right?

Kieran Chandler: So, Joannes, can you explain what Lokad does and how it helps with supply chain management?

Joannes Vermorel: Certainly. At Lokad, we provide software that helps us with aggregated management. Our goal is to manage each piece of the cross-border e-commerce supply chain and create a comprehensive solution for our online seller customers. Software is crucial for scaling and getting things done efficiently. However, we also focus on our day-to-day operations, ensuring high quality and transparency. Additionally, we value partnerships with various stakeholders along the service chain, such as customs officials, DHL, and air freight forwarders. We strive to understand how they operate and predict potential issues before they occur.

Kieran Chandler: It sounds like there’s a place for companies like Winit in the supply chain. Jingyang, what are your thoughts on this tech-driven approach?

Jingyang Xu: It’s definitely exciting to see this new wave of supply chain actors, like Winit, adopting a tech-powered approach for superior execution. The traditional supply chain approach can benefit from tech-driven leadership to deliver exceptional results. We’ve learned from Amazon that it’s not just about having good leadership but also about leveraging technology. Supply chain management involves countless details and operations. To achieve high-quality execution, automation and software play a crucial role. Companies that aim for operational excellence need to prioritize software and technology. They should follow the example of software companies that emphasize rigorous testing and have well-defined development methodologies.

Kieran Chandler: Thank you for sharing your insights. It’s clear that software and technology are integral to achieving excellence in supply chain operations. How does the software you’ve developed at Lokad differ from traditional ERP or WMS systems?

Joannes Vermorel: Well, the difference lies in the level of engineering involved. With Lokad, we don’t just pick an off-the-shelf ERP or WMS system. We actually engineer a solution that is superior and aligned with what our customers expect. We have the flexibility to tune the software according to our own metrics and ensure it performs exceptionally well with the customers’ historical data. This level of customization and alignment is not typically found in traditional supply chain companies. It’s a different mindset altogether, aiming for supply chain excellence. And I believe this difference is also reflected in the company culture, especially at our headquarters. We have a lot of engineers, brain-heavy teams with excellent engineering skills. It feels more like a high-tech company rather than a traditional supply chain company where individuals start from manual labor in a warehouse and gradually work their way up to leadership positions. It’s a different approach, driven by engineers who design and engineer solutions in close collaboration with clients, ensuring a high level of alignment. These are exciting times for us as it aligns perfectly with our vision of revolutionizing the supply chain industry.

Kieran Chandler: It’s there is a lot of affinity in doing that. Nice. And Jingyang, I’ll leave the last word up to you. If you had one bit of advice for a European ecommerce looking to source from Asia, what would it be?

Jingyang Xu: Yeah, I would say, you know, I think the world is changing, and it’s changing quickly, and then specifically talking about the cross-border supply chain, right? So, and it changes almost, you know, daily or even, but there’s definitely something happening major happening every year, right? I would say my advice would be, keep your eye out and don’t be locked to your existing mode of trading or doing your business, right? Keep your eye out for new opportunities and new competition, right? So, for example, one of the things that we’re helping enable is, you know, we have a very deep connection with the factories in China, right? So, we’re trying out this mode where the factories themselves put their inventory in European warehouses. So, as a European merchant, you don’t have to, like, you know, do what you were doing before, take, buy a whole container in and sell it and have your cash locked into that inventory. The factory ships the inventory here, it’s owned by the factory, and then we have an online marketplace or platform where you can sell that inventory and just make the profit off of there, right? So, that’s a mode that even, you know, as a European merchant, you could go, say, “Hey, you know, why don’t we try to do it this way in the future?” And, I see then, just giving that example, I see things like that or different different sort of options for enabling or playing in the supply chain to come up, and my advice would just be to keep your minds open to those opportunities.

Kieran Chandler: Okay, great. Well, I’m afraid we’re gonna have to wrap it up there for today, but thanks, gentlemen, both for your time. So, that’s everything for Lokad TV this week. We’ll be back again next week with another episode, but until then, thanks for watching.